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September 09, 2010, 10:41:34 AM

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Author Topic: confused again - tape grades  (Read 1304 times)
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dcman
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« on: January 28, 2009, 08:38:27 AM »

Hi guys,

I just ordered a Canon HV30, should arrive in a few days.

I would like to upgrade my tape quality, I've been using a Maxell tape, bought in bulk from Sam's Club. But, my GS-150 has had so many head clogging and transport mechanism problems I've come to the conclusion I should be buying something better.  It may or may not be the tape, I've always used Maxell (so no likely issues with different tape emulsions)  and panasonic is part of a group that is known for problems, but using a better grade of tape seems like an inexpensive way to control for problems in a new camera that may (or may not) be tape related.

I'm looking at panasonic tapes, that I can buy in bulk (I intend to use the same tape brand in the camera), but can't get any consensus on tape grades (consumer, pro, master, etc.)  Which grade to other folks buy for their projects?  If you have a particular tape or supplier you use, recommendation are always appreciated.

Thanks - dcman
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Guy Bruner
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 09:37:42 AM »

Ok, I'll go over this again as I don't seem to have a sticky topic on it.

Digital camcorders record digital (1s and 0s) signals to tape.  If the signal is recorded, it is full quality.  Higher quality (more expensive) tapes do not make the video look any better than consumer tape.  You won't get more resolution or better color saturation with more expensive tapes.  If your video doesn't drop out but looks bad, it is because it was recorded badly, not because of the quality of your tape.

HDV does not put 'more stress' on the recording ability of tape because it has higher resolution.  It has the same data rate as DV.  However, because MPEG2 (HDV) uses a 15 Group of Pictures (GOP) encoding, a dropout will affect 1/2 second of video (15 frames out of 30 frames per second) versus only a frame or two with DV.  Therefore, dropouts on HDV are more severe than when recording DV.

There are minimum standards that must be met for a miniDV tape to ensure it will work in all miniDV camcorders.  All name brand tape manufacturers meet those standards.  Name brand tape is not always manufactured by the manufacturer named on the tape.  Most manufacturers hire OEM factories to make their tape and label it for them.  Just because a tape says 'Panasonic' on it does not mean Panasonic manufactured it.  It could have been made by Maxell or Fuji or Sony and labeled 'Panasonic'.  OEM manufacturers make tapes for a range of brands.  They cannot affort to retool their factories for each brand of tape.  Therefore, all the tapes they make must meet the quality standards for the different brands they are labeling.  So, don't get hung up on brand names.

Consumer tapes will work fine for recording HDV.  Some manufacturer's brands may work better with your camcorder than others.  The only way to know for sure is to try different brands until you find one that is available in your market, is cost effective and is reliable in your camcorder.

Higher grades of tape (Professional or Master grades) are manufactured to higher tolerances than consumer tape.  They generally have better signal to noise ratios than consumer tape which means they are less likely to experience dropouts.  They also have more robust carrier and lubricant layers which means they are less likely to stretch or wear out when reused.  The cassettes are also higher quality.  However, buying higher grade tape does not guarantee that you will get more reliable performance.  It is just less likely that you will get degraded performance.

Lastly, mixing tape brands.  There is so much urban legend and unscientific anecdotal 'evidence' out there that it is almost impossible to provide facts on this subject.  The best practice is to select and use one brand of tape, preferrable staying with one batch of tapes from that brand.  If you must switch, thoroughly clean your heads and transport first.  If you are traveling and run out of tape, don't panic.  You can switch brands if you can't find your regular brand.  Just be sure to clean the heads with a cassette cleaner first.  And, to be on the safe side, throw salt over your left shoulder.Wink

Ok.  Tape brands I use and recommend (doesn't mean others won't work equally well).  Panasonic and Fuji.
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Guy
Jeff Emery
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2009, 09:37:59 AM »

I use these and have never had any problem.

BTW, I've read many others have had issues with the GS150. Perhaps it's the camera and not the tapes.

Jeff
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Adam Gold
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2009, 01:56:15 PM »

Here's my own personal "sticky" on the topic, which I post whenever this question comes up:

Tape rules:

Don't waste your money on HDV tapes. There is no difference in picture quality between these and regular MiniDV tapes -- it's all digital. Sony Premiums are fine and can be had online for a little over $2 each.

Tape manufacturers often say that HDV tapes are built to higher standards than regular MiniDV tapes.  That's frequently claimed but so far no one has ever presented any statistical evidence, anywhere, that this is so.

Even if it is true you need to do a cost-benefit analysis to decide if overpaying for all your tapes is worth the reduced chance of a dropout, especially if such dropouts are easily cut around (as they are in all the shooting I do). If it's a once in a lifetime event and you want to maximize your chances of having every frame be perfect, then the more expensive tapes may be worth it for you.

When I first started shooting DV I used the TDKs available at Costco for about $2.50 each.  I used a couple of hundred without a dropout or any other problem.  Later I switched to the Sony Premiums because even with shipping they were cheaper.  I’m on my fourth case of 100 and have had maybe three dropouts total in two years.  Costco now sells the Sony Premiums instead of the TDKs.

Don't mix tape brands. Sony uses a different lubricant than others and switching could gum up your heads. Run a cleaning tape for 10 seconds and then pick one brand and stick to it.

Never re-use your tapes. They should go through your camera exactly twice: once when you shoot and once when you capture.

Try this:

http://www.tapeonline.com/MiniDV/Sony_DVM60PRL.aspx
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Adam
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dcman
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2009, 06:34:50 PM »

Guy, Jeff, and Adam,

As always, thank you for the clear, thorough, and non-condescending advice.  I was having a hard time sifting through the massive pile on information and misinformation on the general internet.

I had feared that perhaps the consumer grade tapes I was using were causing my problems, and that I should be buying professional grade tapes, but it seems that the consumer grade tapes were not the problem I envisioned them to be.  I'm starting with a new camera and wanted to start off on the right foot.

Cheers everyone - your help was much appreciated.

Dan
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4nn4
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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 01:20:52 AM »

I use these and have never had any problem.

BTW, I've read many others have had issues with the GS150. Perhaps it's the camera and not the tapes.

Jeff

Dear friends..
I bought ny GS150 on 2006 an for almost 4 years and use it with some tape's brand, usually Panasonic,Sonny and JVC, indeed it's not giving problem at all, I can record,playback (on the camcorder) and transfer it to computer easily.

But recently, I have playback problem on my camcorder which is when I use (new) Panasonic tape to record. When playback then display it show black horizontal bars, no sound and time frame indicator is keep skipped (not running smooth). But after shaking the camcorder suddenly it can play smoothly. This is happen again even I change to use new Panasonic tapes

But this problem is not happen when I using JVC tapes, I can record and playback it as normally. So it's still make me confuse somehow if my camcoder hardware began to breakdown or maybe for old camcoder there will be start to show symptom of choosing exact brand of tape  Undecided

Well....just like Alzheimer disease began to develop on older people....
Sadly, the good old forum is now dissapear so hopefully I can still find the solution from all of you here

regards,
4nn4
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Shaun Stoddart
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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 01:37:42 AM »

I use these and have never had any problem.

BTW, I've read many others have had issues with the GS150. Perhaps it's the camera and not the tapes.

Jeff

Dear friends..
I bought ny GS150 on 2006 an for almost 4 years and use it with some tape's brand, usually Panasonic,Sonny and JVC, indeed it's not giving problem at all, I can record,playback (on the camcorder) and transfer it to computer easily.

But recently, I have playback problem on my camcorder which is when I use (new) Panasonic tape to record. When playback then display it show black horizontal bars, no sound and time frame indicator is keep skipped (not running smooth). But after shaking the camcorder suddenly it can play smoothly. This is happen again even I change to use new Panasonic tapes

But this problem is not happen when I using JVC tapes, I can record and playback it as normally. So it's still make me confuse somehow if my camcoder hardware began to breakdown or maybe for old camcoder there will be start to show symptom of choosing exact brand of tape  Undecided

Well....just like Alzheimer disease began to develop on older people....
Sadly, the good old forum is now dissapear so hopefully I can still find the solution from all of you here

regards,
4nn4

You just need to stick with only and only 1 brand of tape. Different manufactures use different lubricants that being either wet or dry. Mixing will end in head clog. I'm not saying this is your problem here, but heads will have diminished life when they are subject to a myriad of different tape.
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4nn4
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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 01:47:13 AM »

Dear Mr. Shaun,
Well I think you're correct perhaps my hardware began to deteriorate.
However is there any simple way to fix it.
Well, it's hard for me to bring to service centre, afraid that dismantle it may cause more problem on it.

Thanks,
4nn4
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Shaun Stoddart
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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 01:56:22 AM »

Run a Panny head cleaner thru it a couple of times, then strictly use Panny PQ tapes. I own a GS300, a DVX102 and an HMC152,,,, the GS300 and DVX have never given me tape drive or head problems and i'v only ever used Panny PQ tapes.

Cheers
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Chris Harding
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« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 06:03:32 AM »

Hi Shaun

Me too BUT I never used a tape more than once!!! I never had to clean heads either cos a new tape has virtually no loose oxide on it to clog the heads!!

4nn4, the problem here to me sounds like the capstan roller has gone hard so the tape now slips and skids between the spindle and the roller ..My old DS30 did that!! A temporary fix is to lightly sand the roller with some water paper but it still means that the cam has reached retirement age as well!!
Panny quoted me a whopping $600 to fix the drive train!!! I sold the cam on ebay as is and bought a new one!!  Maybe, if the problem is the drive train, it's an ideal time to upgrade to a card based camera..nothing to wear out !!! If you want to get another GS it will more than likely be cheaper to grab one of ebay as a repair will cost you a lot more than a used camera!!

Chris
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 07:42:22 AM »

Folks,
I live about 10 miles (16.7 km) from one of the largest Sony tape manufacturing facilities in the world.  I have spoken with their quality control department about differing lubricants and consequences.  They have run many studies over the years and have been unable to substantiate problems due to mixing tape brands.  The problems you hear about due to mixing tape brands cannot be technically reproduced. 

I recently had the opportunity  Roll Eyes to shoot 18 hours of a conference without knowing in advance I would shoot it all.  I only had three Fuji DV tapes with me, which is the brand I normally use.  I had to send someone to Walmart to buy some more tape.  They only had Sony and I didn't have a head cleaning cassette with me.  Result?  Not one dropout.  No fouling of the heads.  Perfect transition from the dry lubricant Fujis to the wet lubricant Sonys.  I was shooting HDV so I would have definitely noticed any dropout.  Since then I have captured video from 5 more Sony tapes using that same camcorder.  I have still not seen one dropout.

All this being said, I still recommend, like Shaun and others, that you select a brand-name tape and stick with it.  Clean your heads after every 50 hours of head time.  Clean prior to switching tape batches or brands, but don't agonize over it if you don't.  You can reuse tape many times if you choose.  I have several tapes that I've recorded on and played back from at least 10 times...again, without a single dropout.  My point here is that things are not as critical as some make out.  If you want to be ultra-conservative, that is your privilege.  Whatever makes you comfortable is definitely the way to go.
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 08:09:03 AM »

As far as the GS150 model goes, my first camcorder was a "Demo" GS150. It immediately had to go in for repair for a focus issue. Once I got it back I used it heavily until I bought a "closeout" GS300. I then made the GS150 a capture deck (and a backup, backup camera). I then purchased a Canon GL2, and more recently, another GL2.

This whole time my GS150 has been my capture deck and initially saw at least 3 brands of tape. Once I read the good advice about sticking to a brand, I went with Sony Premiums.  My GS150 has never had its heads cleaned and has served me very well.

4nn4 - Like Chris said, it may very well be time to retire your GS150. Mine was also a 2006 model but is still working great. It will only retire (or get sold) when I move over to HD.



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Panasonic AG HMC40, Canon T2i, PV-GS300, PV-GS150, Rode Stereo Video Mic, Azden Shotgun Mic, Radio Shack Lav Mic, Edius Neo 2.5 Booster, Adobe PE8, Smith Victor Lighting Kit, and all my wife's Canon Photo gear!
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 09:11:33 PM »

Have several of the PV-GS cameras and the tape drives are workhorses.  In comparison, I feel pity for the people with Sony cameras and the 32:11 errors, the canon GL1/GL2 cameras etc.   Panasonic are the strongest mini DV drives on the market... an academic question now that the solid-state devices have taken over the market.
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