Camcorder or DSLR

[Digidave]

Hi all,

I'm considering either an addition to the stable or a replacement and to that end I've been doing some research.

Camcorders I'm considering are the Canon HF G10 and XA10, the XF series are a bit out of my price range and, DSLR wise, the Canon EOS 550D and 600D with Magic Lantern.

One thing that makes the DSLRs a front runner for me is I have some good quality glass from my 35mm SLR days, which will help with initial cost i.e. I can buy a body only and adaptors are cheap. I will need to try these lenses with my wife's 550D before I can make any decision.

I was feeling the 600D was the DSLR to aim for if I go that way, but then I found out that the Magic Lantern menu is restricted on the 600D, so the 550D is still well in the frame. I haven't yet found out if Cinestyle can be used with ML.

While I am a manual man at heart (photographically speaking!), the lack of auto focus and iris when needed is a minus, as is the fact that I will need to carry several lenses and all the other accoutrements. Shallow DoF, while stunning when used sensibly, is not the holy grail for me, although I would like the facility to use it if possible.

A camcorder on the other hand is built for the job, pretty much self-contained and therefore easier to carry around and use. The XA10 with its handle on is my favourite at present. What I don't want is something as small as the Panasonic HDCs.

So what I am thinking is, if I get a DSLR I could use it for more sedate and staged shots, but use the camcorder for action stuff like airshows and for portability on holidays. I can't imagine how I could manually follow focus on a Spitfire flying toward me at 400mph!

I would value your thoughts.

Dave

[Chris Harding]

Hi Dave
You know my feelings already on using DSLR's ...and I use them for their correct purpose only and that's photography!! Then again if you are looking for shallow DOF then why not stick to shooting the odd video on a decent stills camera....they are fine for the odd video here and there and you then have a decent still camera too!!  You are not doing events so I can't see any reason to buy a video camera especially Canon's very over-inflated prices!!  If you are shooting an aircraft focus is not an issue anyway unless it's close to you so I really cannot see any issue using a manual lens on a DSLR ...probably a better body to go for would be a Lumix GH2 so you don't have the annoying 12 min limit that Canon has ...You can get adaptor rings for the GH2 for most lenses..including vintage ones!!
Chris
 

[Guy Bruner]

I've thought about this as the capability of DSLRs has improved with video.  Not having auto focus is an issue as you point out.  Also, shooting in low light is better on a camcorder than on a DSLR.  Like Chris points out, each has its own place.  But, I hate lugging around several recording devices especially if I'm on a vacation or shooting more casual video.  DSLRs are heavy especially with the big glass.  In casual situations, I want light.  The lack of a professional need brings up more convenient solutions...like shooting with a smart phone.  With the advent of quality shake removal in the current crop of NLEs, cell phones are usable for these types of venues.  After all, I am only going to share them with a close circle of family and friends.  It's a conundrum to be sure!

[Digidave]

The thing is, there's a whole industry out there that has sprung up to exploit the video capabilities of DSLRs. Particularly, but not only, Canons. When you look at some of the rigs the pros are using, it's difficult to spot the camera body amongst the rest of the gear.

Magic Lantern gives Canon DSLRs most of the menu functions to be expected of a video camera including manual sound recording level, zebras, peaking and headphone monitoring capability, to name just a few. Cinestyle gives better exposure latitude, improving low light performance and at the same time helping with over exposed highlights. I would love to try them out, but I wouldn't do it on my wife's camera "just in case", aspecially as Magic Lantern comes with a health warning!

The HF G10 and XA10 both have the Canon Pro sensor with a pixel count of 1920x1080, so the pixels are larger and low light performance is improved. The XA10 also has infra red for no (visible) light shooting and XLR inputs via the handle.

As you say Guy, DSLRs can get very heavy with a selection of lenses. That bring me neatly back to where all this started a few years back.

We were on holiday in Greece and took a trip to Athens to, amongst other things, visit the Acropolis. Well you have to don't you, it's one of those must visit places! I was carrying my Olympus OM10 plus a few lenses in a shoulder bag. By the time we had climbed to the top of the hill in the full sun, I had vowed never to carry all that gear again, the strap had rubbed my shoulder raw and I was feeling distinctly overheated. The joke was, I hadn't got a wide enough lens to frame the Parthenon properly and had to borrow my wife's Sureshot for the photos. It took a lot of cold beer to revive me after that!

I really do fancy a DSLR, but I want to make the right decision. I shall not make a decision this side of Christmas, but will be very interested in any further thoughts you may have on it.

Thanks for your replies so far,
Dave

[Guy Bruner]

I just saw a report that Sharp has developed a 12.1 MPXL, 5.47mm smartphone CMOS sensor with optical image stabilization for Motorola (Google).  It is also capable of shooting 1080P with OIS. 

Next step is to build an adapter that will allow use of Canon DSLR lenses.   

[Digidave]

Yeah, that should do it Guy!

One model that has just come to my attention is the Sony NEX-VG20EH, it seems to have a foot in both camps. It is a camcorder, takes interchangeable lenses and has a large sensor. The footage I have seen so far looks pleasing, but as yet I can find no proper reviews so, anyone either have any experience with this camcorder or know of a review I have missed please?

Dave

[Bif]

Not having auto focus is an issue as you point out.

I remember not having access to any kind of autofocus in the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's.  Manual focus was all there was and one either learned to focus or settled for "fuzzy" shots.

Also, shooting in low light is better on a camcorder than on a DSLR.

Actually shooting in low light can be where the DSLR really shines (pardon the pun...).  Not with the "kit" lens or many zooms but the story is different with "fast glass".  For video with Canon DSLR's I use 3 primes a lot. 

An EF 24mm f2.8 (good for something close to the look we used to get with a 35mm "wide normal" on film SLRs for PJ work), not quite wide but comfortable to work with and at f2.8 fair for some low light situations.

An EF 28mm f1.8, what we used to get as "normal" perspective with the 50mm standard lens on film SLRs.  F1.8 gives excellent low light functionality.

And an EF 50mm f1.8 (the original design with the focusing ring in the "right" place).  Very good for "portrait" perspective and also outstanding for low light work.

Combine any of the 3 with Canon DSLR enhanced high ISO performance and you have an amazing "winning" combination.  While some get very "antsy" going higher than ISO 800, tests I ran with my 7D showed ISO 1600 to be very clean, ISO 3200 still quite good although you might be able to see some noise if you really looked for it, at ISO 6400 some noise started showing but not enough to keep me from using 6400 if necessary to "get the shot". 

I even tested 12,800 (the 7D will do that in video, the T2i, T3i, and 60D will not.  They top out at 6400) and determined if you could avoid underexposure in the darker tones that ISO was somewhat useable.

My favorite for most low light work is the 28mm f1.8.  Perspective and working distance are comfortable and the lens is sharp even wide open with good inherent contrast. 

Like Chris points out, each has its own place.  But, I hate lugging around several recording devices especially if I'm on a vacation or shooting more casual video.  DSLRs are heavy especially with the big glass.   

This point is more than valid, I also hate "playing pack mule".  I'd probably carry the Rebel with "kit" lens, maybe the 28mm f1.8, and possibly, maybe, might bring along an HF100 (seems to weigh little more than a beer can).

[peterphelan]

Dave,
If you are still considering the Canons, do take a look at the 60D; I think it's worth the little extra. I have been very happy with mine, which although its real purposes is as a backup for the 5D2 which I use for my commercial stills work, I actually use it as my main "video" camera now.
 
The latest Magic Latern - issued on 11.11.2011 seems fine. It installed without a hitch and has been running perfectly ever since. I used it on a professional location shoot last month to good effect, using only the factory ambient flourescent strip lighting. (I have to buy a colour temp meter again now to assess the amount of colour correction needed on any supplementary light added in such environments) And since I needed reasonable depth of field whilst shooting the machine operators, I wound the iso up to 1250; but the results were fine.
 
One advantage the 60D has over say the 600, is the option of the intermediate iso settings; 160, 320, 640 etc., which give less noise than using the standard 200, 400 and 800 etc. People are shooting at what I would regard as very high iso on these DSLR's, and so I am going to experiment some more and try Neat Video to help clean up the footage.
 
Peter

[Digidave]

Thanks Peter,

I had not put the 60D into the equation, but I have now had a look at some reviews and like most of what I've seen. Do you know if Cinestyle and Magic Lantern can be used together? Also, what do you make of the on board audio (I would use an external mike), is it as bad as some suggest?

I've been put off the Sony NEX-VG20EH somewhat, what I've read about it to date is not very complimentary, so my choice now seems to be between the XA10 and 60D.

Cost wise, the 60D wins hands down since I can buy a body only and use some of my existing manual M42 lenses with adaptors. But it's about overall cost and what will fill my needs best.

Dave

[Bif]

Dave,

I have the 7D, T3i, and 60D and the 60D is just about my favorite right now.  The onboard audio doesn't seem too bad, tests I ran with a Rode Videomic sounded pretty good.  I did pass the mic signal through one of those 2X battery powered amps, the trick with any of these is to not have to run the input gain up high at all.

I had purchased that little amp to use as a headphone amp coming off the ZoomH1 for audio monitoring.  I'll continue to use "double system" sound as I do get the best audio results that way.  I have both the Zoom H1 and H2 and often use them with their own built in mics.  Get it in close enough and you do get very good audio.

I do not use ML, the 60D has the intermediate ISO's and manual audio.  The built in 5X and 10X focusing aids are more than adequate, when using a loupe with 3x (or 6x on the CAVISION) I find I can hit focus without aids much of the time.  I followed 3 instances of folks who wound up with disabled T2i's after using ML.  Seems they may have encountered one of the "runaway" situations that result in rapid discharge of the battery with much heat.

All 3 cameras had severe heat damage from the battery compartment according to Canon.  So I don't "monkey" with the firmware.

Instead of using something like Cinestyle I set up a user defined "picture style" based on NEUTRAL with sharpness all the way down, Contrast and Saturation down two "notches" from the default midscale.  Takes the "edge" off the default over vivid look and gives me a look that matches the way I have my HF100's set up.  Not as flat as Cinestyle or some of the other "flat" profiles but I've seen reports of folks using those having trouble getting good skin tones in post processing.

The 60D is a great camera for both video and stills pretty much as it comes out of the box.

[peterphelan]

Hi Dave,
Yes Cinestyle and ML can be used ok and the audio is actually very good if you use ML. This bypasses the camera's own pre-amps completely, so you can access the analogue gain. This is available in "steps" on a scale from zero to 32. Furthermore, you can monitor the audio via headphones plugged into the av socket, both during recording and playback.
 
I'll drop you a private message on this because I have been doing a lot of experimenting of late, and I think you will find the results interesting. Like you I have looked at the XA10, but for the moment at least, am staying with the DSLR's I use every day, and for which I have lots of lenses and other kit.
 
Peter

[Digidave]

Now that's interesting! Two professional photographers who like the Canon 60D, but one likes and one won't use, Magic Lantern.

Thanks for the info Bruce, in both posts, helpful as always.

I have read about the "runaway situation" you mention, it is part of the "health warning" with ML. Apparently, if you don't follow the installation instructions precisely, this can happen and you have to be prepared to rip the battery out somewhat rapidly.

I guess you have your HF100s set up much like like I have my HF S100. It may mean that Cinestyle will be overkill, but it's good to know it's there if needed and will work with ML.

As mentioned in your previous post, I have been looking at the prime lenses too.

Thanks Peter, nice to know they will work together.

As you gather, I have read up a bit on ML. At the very least it does away with many of the objections some people have to using DSLRs for video. I am cautiously impressed, knowing you use it helps enormously.

I shall look forward to your PM, thanks for that too.

Dave

[Digidave]

To keep you up to date, tests finished, order placed.

I tested my old lenses on the EOS 550D and they work faultlessly. It's not just fitting them to the camera, it's making sure they focus all the way too, because some combinations don't match.

I've been testing Magic Lantern out too, it's impressive. I had no problems with downloading it or putting it on an SD card. It doesn't install on the camera, so it can be removed at any time. It works alongside the Canon menu, giving all the extra video and audio settings needed, some I haven't figured out yet. It bypasses the noisy Canon mike pre-amps and AGC to give a very low noise floor and, unlike the Juiced Link AGC defeat, allows full stereo recording with an external mike. I will need a small pre-amp.

I have ordered the Canon EOS 60D and just have to wait a few days. Thanks for the tip Peter.

I don't know what is happening to prices, I was using Amazon (UK) as the yardstick, but in the last few days the price has gone up by £200 in 3 steps!

Thank you all for your input, it was good to discuss it here before making the decision.

Dave

[pilsburypie]

Would love to see how you get on Dave. Although you do say you have the 550 already. I'm always contemplating the Dslr video route as I have a few L lenses but it's the autofocus worry and too shallow DOF that worry me. My current 1Ds2 doesn't have the luxury of video but I love the camera.

One thing Peter Phelan said about the intermediate ISo settings producing less noise than the native 100, 200, 400 etc. I thought they produced more noise as the intermediates were just native settings with added gain. I always thought that if you wanted say Iso 640 it would be a cleaner image if you slightly over exposed the iso 800 image without blowing highlights then pulled it back pp.

[Digidave]

Hi Mark,

I'll let you know how things go. At the moment I'm just testing the new cam and getting the bits and pieces I need together.

The 550D is my wife's (the "if I ask nicely" bit), which she uses exclusively for stills. I took a few clips with it on holiday a while back plus a couple of test clips, but that's all. Otherwise, it gave me the advantage of being able to make sure my lenses (with adaptors) were suitable and a way to check out Magic Lantern before committing myself to buying.

For me, the lack of auto focus is not a big problem, although it would be nice in some situations, it was just one of the minus points against the DSLR when I was weighing up which way to go. Coming back to an SLR, the focus and aperture rings are exactly where they should be, are nice to use and feel natural. Auto focus is available with Canon auto lenses, the big thing against is motor noise, particularly with the "kit" lenses, but with USM lenses it is said to be fine. I wouldn't know, I bought the body only and my old lenses are all old FAD types, which become completely manual used this way. My wife uses her lenses in manual mode the way I taught her, so I've never heard an AF motor run!

Shallow DOF shouldn't be a problem except in low light situations, normally you can increase the ISO setting, or decrease the shutter speed if it's over 1/50th, so you can stop down and control it. What a luxury instantly variable ISO (ASA then) would have been in my old 35mm SLR days!

The intermediate ISO settings are less noisy because the native ISO of the Canon APS-C sensor is 320, so any multiple or fraction of it starts off cleaner. I need to correct this. I have just found out that it is a myth that the native ISO is 320. Whole stops (ISO 100, 200 etc.) are native to Canon cameras. The reason intermediate ISO settings that are multiples of 160 are less noisy is that they are derived from the next highest whole stop and digitally reduced, with a corresponding reduction in noise. The other intermediates, 125, 250 etc. are noisier because they are derived from the next lowest whole stop and digitally increased.

The bad sound quality argument is pretty much a non -starter if you use Magic Lantern and an external mike. With ML you can turn off the noisy Canon digital pre-amps (and the AGC on a 550D, ML gives manual level control) and just use the analogue gain. Depending on the mike you use, a small pre-amp may be needed, as it is for me for my Rode SVM.

I am enjoying playing with my 60D when time permits, it's lovely to have all the main settings available without having to dive into the menu each time. I haven't tried all the settings out yet. I haven't counted, but with the Canon menu and the supplementary ML menu, there must be hundreds, some of which don't apply because of my manual lenses.

Dave