HDC-TM700 - 1080/50p useless?

[pilsburypie]

Hi all

Researching several cameras and on reading the review at   camcorderinfo.co.uk, which seems to rate it very highly, some worrying   comments along the same lines stick out:

1. So, if you want the   sharpest image possible from the HDC-TM700, you   should use its   1080/50p settings—the only problem is this footage is   nearly   impossible to work with or edit on a computer.

2. However, when   you shoot with the HDC-TM700's native 1080/50p setting,   the camcorder   uses a proprietary MPEG-4 codec that isn't really   compatible with   anything other than Panasonic's provided software. Yes,   the video shot   with the 1080/50p setting looks stunning when you play it   back on an   HDTV, but the only way you can really do this is by playing   back the   footage directly from the camcorder. We couldn't find any third   party   software that would import or recognize the 1080/50p clips shot   with   the HDC-TM700, although we expect this to change if 1080/50p   recording   becomes more prevalent in the future.

3. The Panasonic HDC-TM700   ships with HD Writer AE version 2.1 software.   The software is   essentially the same as its previous incarnations, but   this new   version does allow for importing 1080/50p footage. Having this   feature   is an absolute necessity as no other commercially available     programmes seem to be able to handle the 1080/50p footage shot with the     HDC-TM700. If you want to edit the footage you shot using the   HDC-TM700's 1080/50p   setting, there is an option on the software that   allows you to convert   the footage to regular AVCHD. Unfortunately,   every time we tried   performing this action the software crashed after   about 15 minutes into   the conversion process.If you want to shoot 50p,   you're probably better   off just playing back footage through the   camcorder.

Doesn't Vegas 9 deal with 1080/50p? Can this be rendered and put on blue ray and played on a PS3?
Would I actually need a blue ray burner - could I just get a media player like the WDTV live that plays 1080/50p and just put my edited film straight on it and connect to my TV via HDMI?

[Ray1951]

Going by what was written, the issue isn't the resolution or the type of frame, it's the proprietary codec that the camera is using to encode the video. Only the software that Panasonic provides understands the camera, nothing else. Apparently the provided Panasonic software isn't very good at re-encoding the video into a different format that the rest of the world understands and uses. If the format becomes popular enough, and likely licensing fees paid to Panasonic, then it's possible other software will be able to import the video in the camera's native format. Until then, the Panasonic software is the only choice.

[Guy Bruner]

It's not that it is proprietary...all codecs that have not been agreed upon as a standard are "proprietary".  When AVCHD came out, Panasonic, Sony and Canon agreed and made it a part of the Blu-ray spec.  Unfortunately, the BD spec has never allowed for 50/60p so there is no standard codec.  Each manufacturer that offers 50/60p will have to provide the software manufacturers their codecs before you'll see them incorporated into NLEs.  Vegas 10 pro does not offer 50/60p except in 720 line HD.

[Digidave]

Hi Mark,

Just a couple of things to toss into the pot. Cineform NeoScene is compatible with the TM700 and accepts 50/60p footage. I also found this, it looks rather involved and no, I'm not trying to flog you a Mac!

Vegas Pro 9 does not appear to accept 50/60p.

Dave

[pilsburypie]

Interesting. So at the moment the TM700 seems to me to be a bit ahead of the game even for the new Vegas 10 pro. Sure it looks a nice camera but a lot of the rave reviews are based on the 1080/50p footage straight out of the camera. That's not how id watch it.

So no way of editing (unless I get cineform) and no way of watching. Great!

[Digidave]

Mark,

A couple of recent threads started me looking around and the new Canon HF G10 and XA 10 have really taken my fancy. They've put their pro sensor in which has done away with the excess pixels, so each pixel is larger therefore it has better contrast ratio, is better in low light and the XA 10 has IR capability too for shooting in total darkness. And they both have an EVF.

AVCHD 1080 50i or 25p at up to 24mbps, editable!

They are due for release in April and I wish I could justify upgrading to one.

I'm using a Canon HF S100 and I like it a lot. Canon build in a lot of pro features such as magnification and selectable colour peaking for manual focus assistance, 70% or 100% zebras for exposure and a manual sound level adjusment option amongst them.

Just a thought,

Dave

[pilsburypie]

Mmmmm..... Those new canons do look tasty. But they are a bit out my league at the mo. If the tm700 was more practical then I could probably justify the £650 it could be got for - at present a cheap used canon hv30 is seeming like a better intermediate dabble with hd until supercams that shoot usable 1080p sort themselves out and price decreases a bit.

[Digidave]

Hi Mark,

I just had a look at the TM700 specs and I see it also records AVCHD 1920 x 1080 50i at 17mbps, which is editable.

Dave

[pilsburypie]

Cheers Dave. Yes it does do 1080i aswell as the 1080p. With my limited practical knowledge I'm not sure how much the quality is improved with progressive. I could get the hv30 for a fraction of the tm700 if I was to settle on interlaced.

[Digidave]

Yes, but with the TM700 you would be ready with 50p when a suitable NLE comes along. Also, the HV30 shoots anamorphic 1440 x 1080 rather than square 1920 x 1080.

I can't see a vast difference between 50i and 25p. I have been shooting in 50i, but I am going to start using 25p. On my camera there are slight changes in 25p which I prefer after having done just a few test shots, but different models would no doubt "feel" different, my main reason for changing is to match the output of my wife's EOS, which is pogressive only, as near as possible.

You are going from a standard def. camera to a high def. one, so the difference in picture quality will be breathtaking whether you shoot 50i or 25p.

Dave

[pilsburypie]

Just watched a 2.5 year old hv30 go on eBay for £400. Now to me that makes the tm700 a bargain! I think I may hold fire for a bit and watch this space regarding 1080/50p cameras and Vegas and playback....... Until I think about this again in a few hours!

[Guy Bruner]

Guys, I have done a little more digging.  I don't have any progressive footage to test with, but Sony Vegas 9/10 provided Project Properties frame rates of 50p (double PAL) and 59.94p (double NTSC) via the dropdown box.  With these you can make a custom template of 1920x1080p50/60.  So, it appears the progressive video can be imported and edited in Vegas.   The problem now is that  there is no render template, at least for MPEG2 and AVCHD.  I'm still looking.  Perhaps there are other templates that can be used...like Microsoft VC1 to put it on BD.  VC1 supports 1080p50/60 but I'm not sure BD supports the 135 Mbps bandwidth.

[pilsburypie]

Wow guy. If it could be rendered appropriately then that really opens things up!

[Guy Bruner]

It looks like the MainConcept MPEG2 HD codec allows 50/60p at 1920x1080 in Vegas Pro.  Also, the SonyXD Cam EX codec allows 50/60p in .MP4.  I don't know if VMS has the MC codecs or if they are compatible with BD.  The XDCAM codecs are not likely to be available to VMS.  However, MC makes its codecs freely available from its website.  That could be a solution if the BD player can read them.  I'm going to see if I can download some progressive footage to test with.

[Guy Bruner]

I downloaded a 10 second clip of raw TM700 1080p60 footage from here.  I brought it to the VP 10 timeline and set the project properties to 1080 at 59.94 fps.  It imported fine.  I then rendered it to MPEG2 using MainConcept codec @ 25 Mbps 1080 @ 59.94.  No problem.  Rendered out in 53 seconds on my Q6600 with slow hard drives.  I now need to burn a test DVD and see if it will play on the PS3.  My wife has other plans this afternoon so it may be a couple of days before I can test it out.  But, it looks like the progress footage can easily be edited with Vegas.